Tuesday, February 26, 2013

Journalists threatened for publishing list of Arkansans who hold license to conceal handguns they are carrying

Arkansas Business publishes concealed carry list

Posted by  on Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 5:09 PM

***UDATE: Arkansas Business has now taken the link off their site. That was quick. Editor Gwen Moritz now says to email her if folks want a copy.

Arkansas Business concealed carry list image
The list of concealed-carry permit holders is now secret, exempted from the state Freedom of Information Act. The new law passed the House earlier this week and Lt. Gov. Mark Darr, acting as governor while Gov. Mike Beebe was out of town, signed it into law Friday.
In the mean time, interested parties had their last chance last week to acquire the list and many did. That includes Gwen Moritz, editor at Arkansas Business, who published a link (scroll down to bottom) to the list today.
It will be interesting to see the reaction. This blog published the publicly available list of concealed-carry permit holders in 2009, prompting a wave of controversy, including death threats to staff members. The list was eventually removed from the site because of concerns raised about the publication of specific addresses. The controversy led at the time to a change in the law, making names and zip codes but not full addresses publicly available.


Showing 1-50 of 54
129,947 permit holders.
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Posted by jrb on 02/25/2013 at 1:00 PM
Having guns in the people's hands will keep down the possibility a tyrant will take over. That is why the biggest tyrants have been gun control freaks!!!! Here is a poster that shows that. http://thedailyhatch.org/2013/02/25/gun-co…
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Posted by SalineRepublican on 02/25/2013 at 1:05 PM
The link you provided goes to a story about women. Can't find anything on the Ark Business site about permits.
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Posted by jtsims on 02/25/2013 at 1:05 PM
Scroll down.
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Posted by David Ramsey on 02/25/2013 at 1:07 PM
So, I did a little experiment--I went to the Arkansas Business link and sorted the file so that I found my own zip code. I found lots of people that I know on the list, but of the ones I knew, I didn't find a single one that I would be afraid to be around, even knowing that person was armed. I found colleagues, students, friends, my boss, my banker, my insurance agent...but not a single person that bothered me. Of course, there were a lot of people on the list I didn't know, but you'd think that of the crazies that I'm familiar with, one of them would be packing. But no. It was actually kind of reassuring. Maybe the folks on the list shouldn't be too upset to be listed.
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Posted by Archaeopteryx on 02/25/2013 at 1:07 PM
@Saline: This was discussed and refuted on the comments to this very blog a few weeks back. Merely repeating your incorrect statements and linking to some inane poster on your own blog doesn't change that.
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Posted by Infamous Amos on 02/25/2013 at 1:10 PM
Thank you Gwen Moritz, editor at Arkansas Business, for grabbing this list at the last minute. I probably won't even look at it, but it delights me that it makes our pistol-packers so damn nervous.

Think about it.....you're wanting to do something bad...so you consult this list so you can make sure to break into the home of someone who's armed to the FK'ing teeth. Yeah....makes perfect sense to me, only thing better would be a list showing Arkansas people with concealed carry bazooka permits.

It's such a crying shame that Arkansas is so messed up after 200 years of people poking around here. Why aren't we more like Connecticut or Washington state? if stobbed don't we bleed just like them people? Isn't the same Allah looking down on all of us? Why don't their women need a good probing? Why haint the Bible so strong in those places? Is their Republicans......fat?
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Posted by DeathbyInches on 02/25/2013 at 1:11 PM
>>Having guns in the people's hands will keep down the possibility a tyrant will take over.<

But it will not make you safe from rightwing, extreme conservative terrorists:

-- July 2008: A gunman named Jim David Adkisson, agitated at how "liberals" are "destroying America," walks into a Unitarian Church and opens fire, killing two churchgoers and wounding four others.

-- October 2008: Two neo-Nazis are arrested in Tennessee in a plot to murder dozens of African-Americans, culminating in the assassination of President Obama.

-- December 2008: A pair of "Patriot" movement radicals -- the father-son team of Bruce and Joshua Turnidge, who wanted "to attack the political infrastructure" -- threaten a bank in Woodburn, Oregon, with a bomb in the hopes of extorting money that would end their financial difficulties, for which they blamed the government. Instead, the bomb goes off and kills two police officers...

-- December 2008: In Belfast, Maine, police discover the makings of a nuclear "dirty bomb" in the basement of a white supremacist shot dead by his wife. The man... reportedly was agitated about the election of President Obama and was crafting a plan to set off the bomb.

-- January 2009: A white supremacist named Keith Luke embarks on a killing rampage in Brockton, Mass., raping and wounding a black woman and killing her sister, then killing a homeless man before being captured by police as he is en route to a Jewish community center.

-- February 2009: A Marine named Kody Brittingham is arrested and charged with plotting to assassinate President Obama. Brittingham also collected white-supremacist material.

-- April 2009: A white supremacist named Richard Poplawski opens fire on three Pittsburgh police officers who come to his house on a domestic-violence call and kills all three, because he believed President Obama intended to take away the guns of white citizens like himself.

-- April 2009: Another gunman in Okaloosa County, Florida, similarly fearful of Obama's purported gun-grabbing plans, kills two deputies when they come to arrest him in a domestic-violence matter,...

-- May 2009: A "sovereign citizen" named Scott Roeder walks into a church in Wichita, Kansas, and assassinates abortion provider Dr. George Tiller.

-- June 2009: A Holocaust denier and right-wing tax protester named James Von Brunn opens fire at the Holocaust Museum, killing a security guard.

-- February 2010: An angry tax protester named Joseph Ray Stack flies an airplane into the building housing IRS offices in Austin, Texas. (Media are reluctant to label this one "domestic terrorism" too.)

-- March 2010: Seven militiamen from the Hutaree Militia in Michigan and Ohio are arrested and charged with plotting to assassinate local police officers with the intent of sparking a new civil war.

-- March 2010: An anti-government extremist named John Patrick Bedell walks into the Pentagon and opens fire, wounding two officers...

-- May 2010: A still-unidentified white man walks into a Jacksonville, Fla., mosque and sets it afire, simultaneously setting off a pipe bomb.

-- May 2010: Two "sovereign citizens" named Jerry and Joe Kane gun down two police officers who pull them over for a traffic violation, and then wound two more officers in a shootout in W. Memphis, AR...

-- July 2010: An agitated right-winger and convict named Byron Williams loads up on weapons and drives to the Bay Area intent on attacking the offices of the Tides Foundation and the ACLU, but is intercepted by state patrolmen and engages them in a shootout and armed standoff...

-- September 2010: A Concord, N.C., man is arrested and charged with plotting to blow up a North Carolina abortion clinic. The man, 26-year--old Justin Carl Moose, referred to himself as the "Christian counterpart to (Osama) bin Laden” in a taped undercover meeting with a federal informant.

That was from the short list. http://tinyurl.com/4jzjbfa

Did they forget to tell about these on the FOX Box? I bet they did."

compiled by Fayetteville Freethinker
"The Giffords shooting brings the tally to 19 total cases of domestic-terrorism inspired by right-wing extremism in the past couple of years. Oh, excuse me: I meant to say "isolated incidents". Because that is how each of these cases was treated -- and how they continue to be reported by the mainstream media, particularly at Fox, which generally does not report on them at all." --ibid
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Posted by eLwood on 02/25/2013 at 1:29 PM
Gwen announced her deed on statewide tv last Fri evening during AETN's "Arkansas Week."
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Posted by eLwood on 02/25/2013 at 1:33 PM
So do you want my IDPA and NRA member numbers along
With my FFL license number?
You know what they'll show?
I'm a responsible gun owner and expert pistol

You ought to be reporting on the waste the
Odummers are doing by attending social
Gathers and multiple vacations
On the government dime.
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Posted by clay pigeon on 02/25/2013 at 1:46 PM
2,521 - Highest number of concealed-carry permit holders in a zip code

72023 - The zip code with the most number of permit holders, aka Cabot.

10% - percentage of permit holders in the total population of the 72023 zip code.
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Posted by imjustsaying on 02/25/2013 at 1:52 PM
>>Having guns in the people's hands will keep down the possibility a tyrant will take over.<

Elwood responded, "But it will not make you safe from rightwing, extreme conservative terrorists."

Funny you left these off the list.

Ft Hood: Registered Democrat/Muslim.

Columbine: Too young to vote; both families were registered Democrats and progressive liberals.

Virginia Tech: Wrote hate mail to President Bush and to his staff.

Colorado Theater: Registered Democrat; staff worker on the Obama campaign; Occupy Wall Street participant; progressive liberal.

Connecticut School Shooter: Registered Democrat; hated Christians.

The article, "The 5 Worst/Recent Mass Murders (With a Firearm) Came From Democrats" according to this website http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/m…

Did you know the biggest killing in school history was in 1927, at an elementary school in Bath, Mich. A school board member named Andrew Kehoe wired the building with dynamite and set it off in the morning of May 18. Kehoe’s actions killed 45 people, 38 of whom were children. The method of killing was not a gun but gun control is popular as ever these days. Here is some more on that killing and another gun poster.http://thedailyhatch.org/2013/02/25/gun-co…
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Posted by SalineRepublican on 02/25/2013 at 1:57 PM
It is not a tyranny when your candidate loses the vote. Some sure think otherwise lately though. It's still a democracy where the power of a ballot will always trump the power of a gun.
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Posted by Cindi Cobb on 02/25/2013 at 1:58 PM
I don't know if it's right, but I found a statistic that says the population of the 71659 zip code is 8 (Moscow, AR).

9 permit holders in 71659.
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Posted by imjustsaying on 02/25/2013 at 1:59 PM
Infamous Andy said, "@Saline: This was discussed and refuted on the comments to this very blog a few weeks back. Merely repeating your incorrect statements and linking to some inane poster on your own blog doesn't change that."

What I have read seems to point out that the Nazis took over a population that did not have many guns and they took advantage of that. The previous regime had strict controls and Hitler was very glad of that. If you don't want to accept that then refer to the other dictators on the list and they also were involved in the strictest gun control policies: Stalin, Mao, Castro, Qaddafi, Amin, Pot, and Kim JungII. They did not want the people to have guns so they could do what they wanted with them.
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Posted by SalineRepublican on 02/25/2013 at 2:09 PM
"Having guns in the people's hands will keep down the possibility a tyrant will take over."

SalineSolution/Everette, that was so outrageously funny I broke two ribs from laughing so hard. I told the ER to send the bills to you.
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Posted by Sound Policy on 02/25/2013 at 2:27 PM
Now, go through all the countries that have gun control laws more strict than the US's.

There are plenty of countries that have laws that prohibit or put restrictions on gun ownership around the world, and they haven't fallen into oppressive, dictatorial regimes.

Look what has happened when you put controls on guns in Australia, Great Britain, Finland, Ireland, Canada, France, Italy, Austria, European Union,... Oh, that would be nothing except they tend to have fewer people killed by guns. Do you think any of them or the US are close, or ever will be, to having a Stalin or a Mao or a Castro or a Qaddafi or an Amin or a Pot or a Kim Jung taking over our country or theirs? Are all the gun-thumpers truly that paranoid?

Germany has some strict laws regulating guns today. You should encourage them to lift their laws because by now they must be getting close to having another Nazi party/Hitler take over their government.
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Posted by imjustsaying on 02/25/2013 at 2:43 PM
Nobody wants your f--king damn guns! What a bunch of scarity cats. Well, the data shows they ran off to Cabot, and Conway, and Bryant because they are scarity cats who can't live in society. Keep to your white enclaves and when your kids grow up and find that their college roommate or their boss is a black woman or even a brown man who is an Indian and wears a turban and your kids goes stark raving mad, it is your problem but you can always have them live in your bzsement until they are 30.

The world of businesses is owned and run by people who don't speak English as a first language (or even a second language), employ people from all over the world based on skills, not color, and you are putting your kids at a great disadvantage. I worked for a Swedish company, in the US, reporting to an Egyptian who was later replaced by a Brazilian, who reported to a Swedish president who ran our company 2 days a week in MA and ran a ship-building company in Sweden 2 days a week. Get used to it. America isn't the best at business or a host of everything else, even with our most expensive healthcare in the world with #23 results in outcomes. Exceptional-hell in many cases, this country isn't near the average. BUT BOY DO WE HAVE GUNS! Goody, goody, goody. The NRA, the marketing arm of the gun industry, has done their job well and some Americans have more guns than they can fire with all 8 fingers and 2 thumbs. Maybe they can't read or write or do those higher level manufacturing jobs which pay well, but there is always squirrel for dinner.

The Republicans who have pushed this garbage along with Rush Limpmouth and other right-wing radio nuts will sooner or later have to live with the results when a Republican president (if there is ever another one) is put at risk because he isn't as nutty as the radio and TV have made the people.

Get on with your lives and if you want news, find 3 or more sources and never assume that "fair and balanced" means anything about being either fair or balanced and the rest of the world may actually be right 98% of the time. After all, FAUX is part of the MSM! They are also the channel who first brought some of the rauchiest TV to the tube, pushed the football teams to have their scantically clothed cheerleaders, and exploits women in a multitude of "reality" shows that are as far from reality as the SciFi channel.
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Posted by couldn't be better on 02/25/2013 at 2:50 PM
Keep on hating, people. (Or is it "Keep on hating people?") Both work. You guys are making it clearer each day why Arkansans finally wised up and threw out the Democrats.

Look for 2014 to be a wholesale electoral slaughter.
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Posted by ProCarry on 02/25/2013 at 2:56 PM
ProCarry, you mean with an AR-15 or AK-47? That kind of slaughter? And who do you think is most likely to own such assault weapons and use them to ensure everybody thinks exactly like they do?
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Posted by Sound Policy on 02/25/2013 at 3:00 PM
eLwood Your list does show the diversity of the Republican party. You do have to have a big tent... necessary for large gun shows.
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Posted by Hackett on 02/25/2013 at 3:16 PM
Yeah... that's right ProCarry just like the Republican forecasted electoral slaughter in the last election.
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Posted by Hackett on 02/25/2013 at 3:20 PM

Have you not seen any of the legislation the Rep led AR legislature thinks is the most important issue of the day?

Let churches allow guns. AR has been a state for 170 or 180 years and now that issue is most important.

Colleges campuses allow guns. Same 170 year deal above.

Row V Wade is around 40 or 50 years and now cramming electro wands in hoo haws is most important.

People with gun permits are on a massive list with only First Name, Last Name & ZIP Code is now the most important.


Healthcare for hundreds of thousands, the Republican controlled leg wants to hire consultants and put it off.
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Posted by Citizen1 on 02/25/2013 at 3:21 PM
That list is massive.

I started to scroll down to see if Mrs. Citizen1 was properly listed, she was, but after what seemed like forever, I was only at Adams so I clicked on the slider and looked that way.

Mrs. C1 was between 80,000 and 90,000, (don't want to give away too much personal info!) and we are just barely past middle alphabet.

I looked through for names of the whackiest whackos I know and saw NONE were listed.

At first I was relieved, then I figured they were not only whackos, they also were unlawful whackos because they have claimed to be packing most of the time.

One of them that used to do machining work for us, I went out to his shop out in the county toward Benton and he had me open a drawer for some calipers and it was full of knives.

Knowing he was hard rightwing, I asked if he thought the knives would be much protection. He said last resort only, the next drawer had 4 pistols. the cabinet behind was rifles. The credenza was boxes and boxes and boxes of shells. He said these were only if he were caught away from the main house.

As I said I knew he often talked survivalist stuff and didn't have a high regard for minorities, I asked if he was in a malitia or something.

His response was, "I am in no organized group!"

I never asked if he was in some unorganized group, I was too busy leaving.
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Posted by Citizen1 on 02/25/2013 at 3:38 PM

When scrolling to look up Mrs. C1 and only making it into the Adams part of the list, I found out there are boucous of Adams' listed. Smith or Johnson I would expect but Adams.

There seemed like hundreds.

Are there more Adams out and about in Arkansas than I was aware of or should I be very cautious around all of them that are.
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Posted by Citizen1 on 02/25/2013 at 3:47 PM
Arkansas ranks 11th of the states in homicide rates with 6.7 per hundred thousand people.

Florida ranks 13th with 6.6 per hundred thousand. It has more concealed carry permits than any other state.

California ranks 18th with 6.2. It has just 35,000 active concealed carry permits.
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Posted by the outlier on 02/25/2013 at 4:07 PM

>>Having guns in the people's hands will keep down the possibility a tyrant will take over....Funny you left these off the list.<

The largest domestic-grown terrorist violence in U.S. History was by
registered Republican Timothy McVeigh and his fellow militiaman Terry Nichols.
McVeigh stated that he wanted to inspire a "revolt against tyrannical federal government."

As of 2013, the bombing remains the deadliest act of domestic terrorism in United States history.

So, we find Saline Republican using the same language as Timothy McVeigh. What explosive materials are you amassing Saline?


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Posted by eLwood on 02/25/2013 at 4:08 PM

6.7 per 100,000?

Little Rock had 50 some odd last year and only has 130,000.

Arkansas has 3.2 million or 32x6.7= 214

Or maybe my math mind is fried.

Sounds low.
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Posted by Citizen1 on 02/25/2013 at 4:23 PM
Citizen, that is the murder rate. For every 100,000 people in Arkansas, there were 6.7 murdered. You are off a decimal point. You multiplied by a million instead of 100,000.
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Posted by the outlier on 02/25/2013 at 4:27 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but she published this
List AFTER, the Lt. Darr signed the legislation into law on Friday.
It had an emergency clause, which means the law
Goes into affect immediately.
So what's her jail sentence going to be?
Does she get one count if criminal endangerment
Or thousands if counts?
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Posted by clay pigeon on 02/25/2013 at 4:28 PM
Citizen, according to this interactive map, there were 153 homicides in Arkansas in 2011. 72% were gun related.

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Posted by the outlier on 02/25/2013 at 4:35 PM
I see many folks I know on the list, and frankly, I think less of them for it. Foolish to think a gun makes you safer, willing to endorse violence.
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Posted by PVNasby on 02/25/2013 at 4:49 PM
When all these gun laws were being inacted, did anyone ask the local or state police for their opinions? How are they going to know which gun carrier is the good guy and which is not?
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Posted by Verla Sweere on 02/25/2013 at 4:57 PM
Clay pigeon, there is nothing illegal about having, sharing, or publishing information that was publicly available. She (like many in the media) got the list via FOI request prior to Lt. Darr signing the new law. That information remains public record. However, it is no longer possible to acquire the concealed carry list via FOI (so any changes to the list in the future will presumably remain secret). That's all the law does: exempts the list from FOI requests.
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Posted by David Ramsey on 02/25/2013 at 5:18 PM
Depends on how the figures are correlated, Outliar.


Depending on who you are and where you are the risks of gun ownership, or lack of it, may be dangerous. That is the fallacy that sank Kellerman's skewed data. If you are in a rough neighborhood, being armed is a survival sacarment. Unless you want to be one of Outliar's statistics. Having that tool will make you safer, despite what the sheltered fools may believe.

For those with the time, this will be far better reading if you want to avoid British duplicity and error. You will also note that crime had gone DOWN in the last five years, and that is with the engorging of the populace with guns of all types.

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Posted by Steven E on 02/25/2013 at 5:20 PM
Looks like a few of the usual trolls have gotten off their medication schedule. It's showing especially in Ev of the Saline Republic.
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Posted by wannabee conservative on 02/25/2013 at 5:46 PM
There are too many guns out there now for any laws to have a chance of collecting them all. Sandy Hook was in a gun free zone and CT had some of the strictest gun laws in the country.

What would the world look like if a massive attempt to collect them happened. The honest people would turn them in and the dishonest thieves would not turn them in.

I love this yard sign that is sure to scare away criminals. It says "There is nothing in this house worth this" and then it shows a shooting dummy filled with bullet holes in the head and chest. http://thedailyhatch.org/2013/02/25/letter…
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Posted by SalineRepublican on 02/25/2013 at 6:23 PM

You are a damn idiot. You think less of someone because they conceal carry? Sounds like you are not a worthy friend at all.

Also, guns do save lives. I can name two people I know today are alive because they shot intruders who had first fired off rounds at them. Had they not had a gun to defend themselves, they would be dead.
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Posted by jtsims on 02/25/2013 at 6:47 PM
I would prefer open carry. Why do those with guns want to sneak around with them?

Show them like the hunters do in their gun racks. Don't hide them. Let everyone know, so they can decide for themselves whether they trust that person with that gun.
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Posted by rablib on 02/25/2013 at 7:12 PM
Teabaggers/Saline/jtsims/clay pigeon,
PLEASE DON'T STOP POSTING!! I love love love the lack of grammar crazy logic. More, please!

Saline, welllllll... you've got a poster. Case closed, I guess. Good work.

So your AR-15 and high-capacity mag is going to stand up to the USMC APC/tank you think is going to come and quash the will of the people? Sounds legit to me. Good luck with that. So, you're the same folks who oppose campaign finance reform and support corporate personhood, right?

It's insulting is that you'd think the US Armed Forces would attack its own people. Shame on you for hating/mistrusting our police and military.
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Posted by arkinatus on 02/25/2013 at 7:57 PM
grammar skills? meh this is recreational trolling, I shall save my correct grammar for the workplace.
I'll stand up to tyranny, since tyranny wears many coats and hides behind photo-shopped certificates of authenticity. I expect US soldiers the defend us from domestic issues, since they took an oath to protect us on foreign and domestic soil.
AR-15, not reliable, I prefer my Saiga.
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Posted by clay pigeon on 02/25/2013 at 8:42 PM
Steven, crime has been going down annually for more than 5 years. The murder rate has dropped by half in the last 20. The rates of guns in households didn't really jump until 2012. We'll see how statistics on crime alter as a result of that in coming years. Stats on ownership: http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/self-rep…

JRB, 129,947 permit holders out of 3,000,000 in the state? That's one of the keys of this data. It shows what a minority base the GOP is pushing laws for. Only 1 in 3 Americans own a gun in the first place. Though the rate is probably higher here, I bet it's still below 50%.

The well-armed red southern states have higher crime rates than most. #1 is South Carolina, #2 Tennessee, #5 Louisiana, #11 Arkansas, #15 Texas, #17 Oklahoma, #23 Alabama. Somehow MS is #31. If more weapons = citizens safer, those would be reversed.
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Posted by Cindi Cobb on 02/25/2013 at 8:55 PM
Steven thinks a gun is a 'tool', when Steven himself is actually the tool.

How ironic that ReTHUGliconS and Tea Pot Heads want to force everyone to have one or more guns in their houses, churches, colleges, etc. (small government, you know) yet when a high schooler tries to take a gun and clip into his school he gets arrested and expelled. You boys (and I do mean boys!) should be picketing the police department for this boy standing up for your rights to carry.

One other observation- if folks are allowed to open carry, we will know they have a concealed weapon permit (or do we?) so it would no longer be a secret. Won't that knowledge subject them to danger since they think the concealed carry list being available does just that? Oh, you've just got to love the twisted logic of the blog's gun fetishists.

I got my copy of the Secret Gun Club members so I know who to watch out for. What's your gang sign, boys?
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Posted by Sound Policy on 02/25/2013 at 9:17 PM
"I'm a responsible gun owner and expert pistol
Shot. "

OK, Mr. "expert pistol Shot". I challenge you to a duel....with Steven E. Meet him at dawn on the 29th, first sandbar south of Toad Suck. I'm puttin' my money on Steven cause his grammar is better.
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Posted by Olphart on 02/25/2013 at 9:51 PM
Olphart, that would be unsafe. And expert is a classification
You earn in IDPA, buy hitting your target in the center
X number of times.
I'll leave you a parting gift. An education in firearms

The 1st Law of Gun Safety - The Gun Is Always Loaded!

The 2nd Law of Gun Safety - Never Point A Gun At Something You're Not Prepared To Destroy!

The 3rd Law of Gun Safety - Always Be Sure Of Your Target And What Is Behind It!
The 4th Law of Gun Safety - Keep Your Finger Off The Trigger Until Your Sights Are On The Target!
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Posted by clay pigeon on 02/25/2013 at 10:31 PM
I find it ironic that those who are against "open carry" are so concerned with seeing a list of conceal carry permit holders. If open carry passes you wouldn't have to have a list to know who was carrying....you would see with your own eyes. But wait that's too much reality huh....not all roses and butterflies. When our country was founded it was EXPECTED that you had a gun on you as you put your holster on with your socks and shoes everyday before you left the house...without a permit to do so.

John Lott, author of "More guns, less crime", will be at the Clinton School of Public Service on March 9th @ 12:00pm to disuss the positive effects of gun owners on their communities. RSVP on the Crime Chronicle Facebook page if you are interested in hearing REAL FACTS in regards to gun control and crime. https://www.facebook.com/events/450006631736256/
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Posted by Valerie Emmons on 02/26/2013 at 12:01 AM
So if you folks with strong opinions were thinking about hiring someone and looked that person up on the concealed carry list and found that person to be legally licensed to carry a concealed weapon (not necessarily evidence that said person does in fact carry said weapon), and that person was qualified in all respects for the job, would knowing he/she had gone to the effort of obtaining a CCP sway your decision to hire said person?
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Posted by taorider on 02/26/2013 at 12:21 AM
"not all roses and butterflies. When our country was founded it was EXPECTED that you had a gun on you as you put your holster on with your socks and shoes everyday before you left the house...without a permit to do so. "

Will there be roses and butterflies at the lecture on the 9th? If not, my mommy won't let me go.

BTW, you're full of shit. George Washington had a lot of trouble at first with his first continental army. Seems that a lot of them had never owned nor shot a gun before.
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Posted by Olphart on 02/26/2013 at 1:15 AM
Cindi, since your one of the very FEW folks here who actually think, I will give you a proper answer to your query.

If you look at the first link I posted, it talks about the problem with looking ONLY at guns as the main issue. Many states have extremely lax gun laws and have very low homicides or crime rates. Those southern states you bring up also have some of the highest poverty levels in the nation. Other areas like Los Angeles and DC where guns are not only heavily regulated, but banned, you have the highest crime rates in the country.

Ultimately, despite what the fools may snark, the gun is only a tool, and there are guiding issues that go beyond the simple tool that create the violence we have in certain areas.
Posted by Steven E on 02/26/2013 at 8:50 AM
Olpahrt, I must thank you for your confidence in my abilities. I wouldn't mind meeting clay at the local IDPA match in Centerton. I used to compete against cops when I lived in Kali and I was rather proud of how well I did against veteran cops. The only ones that really trounced me were the LA Sheriff's deputies. They, in general are far better gun fighters than most of the other agencies in the area. I know Burbank has a fine group of trained officers, at least in the 90s, when I knew the range master for the Burbank PD.

You shouldn't call BS so quickly, though in regards to your ignorance of history. The militias had some damn fine shots that made a real mess of British cohesion. Still, the major problem with the Continental Army wasn't its lack of guns, but its lack of real soldiers. At that time, the British Army was the best in the world. The nascent American army was a polyglot of tinkers, tailors and militia. If you read about the experience of the American soldiers, you will know that they had a holy terror f the British bayonet. If the fighting got in close, unit cohesion usually fell apart. That was Washington's biggest dilemma. He had to make an army that would be trained well enough to even fight while being pummeled by its own artillery. What the Americans did add was the sniper. There were even dedicated troops armed with rifled muskets that would harass and chew away at British columns.

As far as the question of armed citizens nowadays holding off our own military, it is not impossible. I have noticed with some amusement the disdain held for our own citizen's ability to resist. I have also noted that some are of the failing opinion that our military would never attack its own citizens. My conclusions on this issue is mixed. I know not all would obey illegal and clearly unConstitutional orders to attack its citizens, but questionnaires have been going out since the early 80s gauging the willingness of our soldiers, particularly the officers ranks, to fight against its own civilians. The results, I have found, are disturbing. Some of the more idiotically snarky of this group have some belief that any fight would be a classical battlefield fight. Well, duh, dummy, of course the citizens would lose. But in other manners of fighting and resistance, there are ways to make tanks, armored cars and jets superfluous in the new kind of fight. Big cities are where tanks would go to die. Did you know one man with an unlit bottle of gasoline can knock out an M1 Abrams tank in a city street? Knocks the whole damn tank out without having to kill anybody or take undue chances of getting shot.

Is it probable that our military would get orders to attack its own citizens? Not probable, but it is possible and too many in the military would go along with orders, many not even knowing of the context of Nuremburg.